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	<title>Comments on: Obedience and Christian &#8220;Salvation&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Practical, effective, tested, and wholehearted Christianity</description>
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		<title>By: Finding the Truth: Do We Have Assurance or Must We Merit Salvation &#124; The Rest of the Old Old Story</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1820</link>
		<dc:creator>Finding the Truth: Do We Have Assurance or Must We Merit Salvation &#124; The Rest of the Old Old Story</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 07:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1820</guid>
		<description>[...] I raised a lot of concerns by what I said about works. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I raised a lot of concerns by what I said about works. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shammah</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1816</link>
		<dc:creator>Shammah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 00:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1816</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the Bible promises the kind of &quot;definite&quot; assurance you&#039;re talking about.

1 Pet. 1:17 says we&#039;re supposed to be afraid because we&#039;re going to be judged by our works. We may not like that, but that&#039;s what it says.

2 Pet. 1:5-11 says that we &quot;make our calling and election sure&quot; by &quot;giving diligence&quot; and &quot;doing these things.&quot; These things are adding to our faith virtue, knowledge, etc.

This does not mean that God is a hard taskmaster with a big stick ready to bash you if you fall out of line. We are called to live in the favor of God, to know that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, and to know that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins.

We have to get in line with what&#039;s true, not panic and make the fact that we have to repent and live righteously into something awful and impossible.

I do have confidence about my salvation. My brothers and sisters testify to the fact that the Spirit of God is working in me. The Spirit of God testifies that I&#039;m God&#039;s child.

I do sin. In fact, compared to the great men and women of God that I admire, I&#039;m a really awful Christian. I do have confidence that God is merciful. In fact, he abundantly pardons, and his mercies are new every morning.

There&#039;s a balance. We have to walk with God, let his Spirit assure our hearts, and live in the wonderful mercy of God. But we can&#039;t make nothing of the Scriptures that say that only those who are worthy will walk with him in white (Rev. 3:4). There are so many Scriptures like that that there&#039;s no way I could list them in a comment on a blog.

I&#039;m going to make my next blog post cover a lot of those Scriptures, though.

One more thing. You said that an over-emphasis on works for assurance can lead to bondage and despair. Of course that&#039;s true! If it&#039;s an overemphasis, it&#039;s true. But it&#039;s the Bible that says that those who practice righteousness are righteous as Jesus is righteous (1 Jn. 3:7). It&#039;s the Bible that says that those who practice the works of the flesh won&#039;t inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21). We can&#039;t ignore those things, and looking at them is not an &quot;overemphasis&quot; on works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the Bible promises the kind of &#8220;definite&#8221; assurance you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
<p>1 Pet. 1:17 says we&#8217;re supposed to be afraid because we&#8217;re going to be judged by our works. We may not like that, but that&#8217;s what it says.</p>
<p>2 Pet. 1:5-11 says that we &#8220;make our calling and election sure&#8221; by &#8220;giving diligence&#8221; and &#8220;doing these things.&#8221; These things are adding to our faith virtue, knowledge, etc.</p>
<p>This does not mean that God is a hard taskmaster with a big stick ready to bash you if you fall out of line. We are called to live in the favor of God, to know that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, and to know that God is faithful and just to forgive our sins.</p>
<p>We have to get in line with what&#8217;s true, not panic and make the fact that we have to repent and live righteously into something awful and impossible.</p>
<p>I do have confidence about my salvation. My brothers and sisters testify to the fact that the Spirit of God is working in me. The Spirit of God testifies that I&#8217;m God&#8217;s child.</p>
<p>I do sin. In fact, compared to the great men and women of God that I admire, I&#8217;m a really awful Christian. I do have confidence that God is merciful. In fact, he abundantly pardons, and his mercies are new every morning.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a balance. We have to walk with God, let his Spirit assure our hearts, and live in the wonderful mercy of God. But we can&#8217;t make nothing of the Scriptures that say that only those who are worthy will walk with him in white (Rev. 3:4). There are so many Scriptures like that that there&#8217;s no way I could list them in a comment on a blog.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to make my next blog post cover a lot of those Scriptures, though.</p>
<p>One more thing. You said that an over-emphasis on works for assurance can lead to bondage and despair. Of course that&#8217;s true! If it&#8217;s an overemphasis, it&#8217;s true. But it&#8217;s the Bible that says that those who practice righteousness are righteous as Jesus is righteous (1 Jn. 3:7). It&#8217;s the Bible that says that those who practice the works of the flesh won&#8217;t inherit the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21). We can&#8217;t ignore those things, and looking at them is not an &#8220;overemphasis&#8221; on works.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1815</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1815</guid>
		<description>I personally fail to see how one&#039;s obedience can give any definite assurance as it is always going to be imperfect no matter how good we are. 

I admit I do have an overly sensitive conscience, but it seems to me that an over emphasis on works for assurance (not obedience in general which is good) can easily lead to fear, bondage and despair - similar to the experience Luther had in his early days. It&#039;s very difficult to love and serve God whole heartedly if one thinks he&#039;s a hard task master with a big stick ready to bash you if you fall out of line.

If I may be so bold as to ask this question, Shammah.

Are you confident about your salvation? Are you living righteously enough to pass the judgement?

Sorry if I sound a bit passionate, but this is a crucial issue for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally fail to see how one&#8217;s obedience can give any definite assurance as it is always going to be imperfect no matter how good we are. </p>
<p>I admit I do have an overly sensitive conscience, but it seems to me that an over emphasis on works for assurance (not obedience in general which is good) can easily lead to fear, bondage and despair &#8211; similar to the experience Luther had in his early days. It&#8217;s very difficult to love and serve God whole heartedly if one thinks he&#8217;s a hard task master with a big stick ready to bash you if you fall out of line.</p>
<p>If I may be so bold as to ask this question, Shammah.</p>
<p>Are you confident about your salvation? Are you living righteously enough to pass the judgement?</p>
<p>Sorry if I sound a bit passionate, but this is a crucial issue for me.</p>
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		<title>By: The Rest of the Old Old Story &#187; What Is the Gospel?</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1813</link>
		<dc:creator>The Rest of the Old Old Story &#187; What Is the Gospel?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 14:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1813</guid>
		<description>[...] The second were two questions asked in the comment section of my blog post, Obedience and Christian Salvation. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The second were two questions asked in the comment section of my blog post, Obedience and Christian Salvation. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shammah</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1812</link>
		<dc:creator>Shammah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 13:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1812</guid>
		<description>Those are both legitimate questions.

1. I do believe in assurance of  salvation on the basis of 1 Jn. 1 John was written to give assurance of salvation (5:13) to those who obey Christ&#039;s commands (2:3-4) and practices righteousness (3:7).

Sorry if that&#039;s frightening, but really, it&#039;s stated so clearly you can&#039;t miss it.

I would add that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father (2:1-2), and that if we walk in the light we can experience continual cleansing from sin (1:7).

2. When I say all that, it&#039;s legitimate to ask, at  what point are we obedience enough to Christ&#039;s commands and righteous enough to have his righteousness.

I have two answers. One, the &quot;line&quot; is up to the Judge. Jesus will judge us, and we are supposed to be frightened about that judgment (1 Pet. 1:17). I regret that everyone hates that teaching nowadays, but it&#039;s Scriptural, and it&#039;s historic. It&#039;s what the church taught from the very beginning.

Two, the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God (Rom. 8:16). John acknowledges this as well, while tying it again to obedience to Christ&#039;s commands (1 Jn. 3:24). Paul, too, tied that witness to putting to death the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 9:27). He also tied it to walking by the Spirit (Gal. 6:7-9).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are both legitimate questions.</p>
<p>1. I do believe in assurance of  salvation on the basis of 1 Jn. 1 John was written to give assurance of salvation (5:13) to those who obey Christ&#8217;s commands (2:3-4) and practices righteousness (3:7).</p>
<p>Sorry if that&#8217;s frightening, but really, it&#8217;s stated so clearly you can&#8217;t miss it.</p>
<p>I would add that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father (2:1-2), and that if we walk in the light we can experience continual cleansing from sin (1:7).</p>
<p>2. When I say all that, it&#8217;s legitimate to ask, at  what point are we obedience enough to Christ&#8217;s commands and righteous enough to have his righteousness.</p>
<p>I have two answers. One, the &#8220;line&#8221; is up to the Judge. Jesus will judge us, and we are supposed to be frightened about that judgment (1 Pet. 1:17). I regret that everyone hates that teaching nowadays, but it&#8217;s Scriptural, and it&#8217;s historic. It&#8217;s what the church taught from the very beginning.</p>
<p>Two, the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God (Rom. 8:16). John acknowledges this as well, while tying it again to obedience to Christ&#8217;s commands (1 Jn. 3:24). Paul, too, tied that witness to putting to death the deeds of the body (Rom. 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 9:27). He also tied it to walking by the Spirit (Gal. 6:7-9).</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1811</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 05:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1811</guid>
		<description>Question:

Shammah, do believe there is such a thing as assurance of salvation? How can one know one is being obedient enough to merit eternal life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question:</p>
<p>Shammah, do believe there is such a thing as assurance of salvation? How can one know one is being obedient enough to merit eternal life?</p>
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		<title>By: daniel hamilton</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1747</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1747</guid>
		<description>By &quot;Roman&quot; i meant R. Catholicism.  &quot;Infused&quot; righteousness, in which a actual change occurs and thus the believer is declared righteous,  is contrary to &quot;imputed,&quot; in which righteous is credited to the believer.  While under the New Covenant saving faith results in regeneration by the incoming of the Holy Spirit  (or precedes it if the Calvinists are right), and thus a righteous disposition, the Old Testament  example  shows this declared righteousness to be something acreditted to the believing soul by faith. 

While Abraham was a relatively righteous soul, he was counted as righteous due to His faith in God,   believing that God was both willing  and able to  do as He promised. So that souls who effectually believes on the Lord Jesus and His blood for salvation. (Rm. 4) 

However, the promise cannot be divorced from the just who the Promiser is, that is the Lord Jesus, and faith, like love, constrains obedience consistent with the desire of its Object, in accordance with the light and ability one has. 

But while  the only quality of faith is one that follows Christ,  - a complete faith as James conveys - and thus we are judged by our works, it is not the merit of works that saves us, which idea Trent promoted, but the faith which worketh by love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By &#8220;Roman&#8221; i meant R. Catholicism.  &#8220;Infused&#8221; righteousness, in which a actual change occurs and thus the believer is declared righteous,  is contrary to &#8220;imputed,&#8221; in which righteous is credited to the believer.  While under the New Covenant saving faith results in regeneration by the incoming of the Holy Spirit  (or precedes it if the Calvinists are right), and thus a righteous disposition, the Old Testament  example  shows this declared righteousness to be something acreditted to the believing soul by faith. </p>
<p>While Abraham was a relatively righteous soul, he was counted as righteous due to His faith in God,   believing that God was both willing  and able to  do as He promised. So that souls who effectually believes on the Lord Jesus and His blood for salvation. (Rm. 4) </p>
<p>However, the promise cannot be divorced from the just who the Promiser is, that is the Lord Jesus, and faith, like love, constrains obedience consistent with the desire of its Object, in accordance with the light and ability one has. </p>
<p>But while  the only quality of faith is one that follows Christ,  &#8211; a complete faith as James conveys &#8211; and thus we are judged by our works, it is not the merit of works that saves us, which idea Trent promoted, but the faith which worketh by love.</p>
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		<title>By: Shammah</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1742</link>
		<dc:creator>Shammah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1742</guid>
		<description>Daniel Hamilton wrote:&gt;&gt;That is the Roman idea of â€œinfusedâ€ righteousness, which is wrong,&lt;&lt;

Well, obviously, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s wrong, and everything I&#039;ve ever read has suggested that Roman, western thinking introduced a legal way of thinking. Hebrew thinking makes things practical and spiritual, not just legal.

Thus, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s justification for suggesting infused righteousness comes from later Roman thinking.

In the end, though, you&#039;re saying the only real faith produces works. Once you do that, there&#039;s no sense dodging what the Scriptures say repeatedly, which is that we&#039;re going to be judged by our works. However they come, they are required (Matt. 25:31-46; Rom. 2:5-8; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Pet. 1:17; etc.).

The best way for them to come is for us to experience deliverance from the power of the flesh by faith in Christ (Rom. 8:1-4). At that point, it is up to us, however, to choose to walk in the Spirit (Rom. 8:12-13; Gal. 6:7-10).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel Hamilton wrote:>>That is the Roman idea of â€œinfusedâ€ righteousness, which is wrong,< <</p>
</p>
<p>Well, obviously, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s wrong, and everything I&#8217;ve ever read has suggested that Roman, western thinking introduced a legal way of thinking. Hebrew thinking makes things practical and spiritual, not just legal.</p>
<p>Thus, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s justification for suggesting infused righteousness comes from later Roman thinking.</p>
<p>In the end, though, you&#8217;re saying the only real faith produces works. Once you do that, there&#8217;s no sense dodging what the Scriptures say repeatedly, which is that we&#8217;re going to be judged by our works. However they come, they are required (Matt. 25:31-46; Rom. 2:5-8; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Pet. 1:17; etc.).</p>
<p>The best way for them to come is for us to experience deliverance from the power of the flesh by faith in Christ (Rom. 8:1-4). At that point, it is up to us, however, to choose to walk in the Spirit (Rom. 8:12-13; Gal. 6:7-10).</p>
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		<title>By: daniel hamilton</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1737</link>
		<dc:creator>daniel hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 03:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1737</guid>
		<description>&gt; â€œJustifiedâ€ means to actually be made righteous so that you walk in righteousness (1 Jn. 3:7).&lt;

That is the Roman  idea of &quot;infused&quot; righteousness, which is wrong, even if it is separated from the error that baptized infants are born again, thru proxy faith. 

One is in fact justified by imputed righteousness, but the only KIND of faith that appropriates this is one that will follow Christ, as the defining characteristic of his/her life.  The &quot;these things&quot; of 1Jn. 5:13 refers to what overall constitutes that faith, and  I understand your contrast. 

In salvfically believing and  calling upon the Lord Jesus to save them comes a recognition of who  He is, and that faith works to bring one to act in accordance with that recognition, in gratitude  and reverence of who He is, and which  response will vary in accordance with both the gratitude and light of who God and His Divine Son is. 

As for baptism (or was that another page?) , that is wrongly minimized today, in response to those on the other extreme, who  make it the only time when a soul can call upon the Lord Jesus for salvation. 

In seeking to reconciling both, and consistent with the requirement that faith be that of a confessional quality, (Rm. 10:9,10)  I think baptism can be a &quot;sinner&#039;s prayer&quot; in body language, and in the Bible that act is normally concomitant with salvation. Like a ring in a marriage, but by no means empty symbolism, anymore than failing to recognize other members of the body during the Lord&#039;s supper. (1Cor. 11:20-30)

Not that one cannot be born again before being baptized, as the Gentiles in Acts 10 were, (cf. Acts 11:14)  but baptism is the initial official normative expression of saving faith, and which can take place anywhere, even in a desert, for those who repent and believe with all their heart, which excludes infants (who i do not think need to be saved).   Praise be to God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; â€œJustifiedâ€ means to actually be made righteous so that you walk in righteousness (1 Jn. 3:7).&lt;</p>
<p>That is the Roman  idea of &#8220;infused&#8221; righteousness, which is wrong, even if it is separated from the error that baptized infants are born again, thru proxy faith. </p>
<p>One is in fact justified by imputed righteousness, but the only KIND of faith that appropriates this is one that will follow Christ, as the defining characteristic of his/her life.  The &#8220;these things&#8221; of 1Jn. 5:13 refers to what overall constitutes that faith, and  I understand your contrast. </p>
<p>In salvfically believing and  calling upon the Lord Jesus to save them comes a recognition of who  He is, and that faith works to bring one to act in accordance with that recognition, in gratitude  and reverence of who He is, and which  response will vary in accordance with both the gratitude and light of who God and His Divine Son is. </p>
<p>As for baptism (or was that another page?) , that is wrongly minimized today, in response to those on the other extreme, who  make it the only time when a soul can call upon the Lord Jesus for salvation. </p>
<p>In seeking to reconciling both, and consistent with the requirement that faith be that of a confessional quality, (Rm. 10:9,10)  I think baptism can be a &#8220;sinner&#8217;s prayer&#8221; in body language, and in the Bible that act is normally concomitant with salvation. Like a ring in a marriage, but by no means empty symbolism, anymore than failing to recognize other members of the body during the Lord&#8217;s supper. (1Cor. 11:20-30)</p>
<p>Not that one cannot be born again before being baptized, as the Gentiles in Acts 10 were, (cf. Acts 11:14)  but baptism is the initial official normative expression of saving faith, and which can take place anywhere, even in a desert, for those who repent and believe with all their heart, which excludes infants (who i do not think need to be saved).   Praise be to God.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliel</title>
		<link>http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107/comment-page-1#comment-1729</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rosecreekvillage.com/shammah/archives/107#comment-1729</guid>
		<description>Wow... good preaching....Shammah, lift your voice like a trumpet and declare what burns in your heart....&quot;Do not fear the one who can only kill your body, but fear Him who can take your body and soul and cast it into Hades&#039;....

                      Eliel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230; good preaching&#8230;.Shammah, lift your voice like a trumpet and declare what burns in your heart&#8230;.&#8221;Do not fear the one who can only kill your body, but fear Him who can take your body and soul and cast it into Hades&#8217;&#8230;.</p>
<p>                      Eliel</p>
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